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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC.
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:58:00 -
[1]
The problem with Freighters isn't that they can be ganked in high sec. Its the fact that its next to impossible to really protect them in high sec from ganks, with 7k shields and 25k armor (going off my charon) Any logistics help to keep you alive while your enemies are killing you is rendered inefficient. With the current situation of Domi's being the preferred gank ship for freighters any support the freighter has will be about as effective as concord which is about worthless.
So the questions is how to change that and allow you to actually survive a camp with that help instead of just killing those who killed the freighter. My suggestion would be to give them freighters more shields say about 40-50k, and 3-4 mid slots. Freighters can't target anyone so you won't see directed ECM being a problem. ECM burst won't be a issue in empire because it won't really save you from drones and it would be too high of a risk even against blaster setups.
So that would leave a Shield booster and Hardeners in the mids which would be able to help your guards actually do more then avenge your death. And even if you gave it the power grid to fit a capital shield booster, if you don't change the cap setup its only going to get 2 maybe 3 bursts of shields before running out of cap. And that 2 or 3 may just help keep you out of armor and hull long enough for the logistics to support to kick in and the bodyguards/concord be able to start reducing the incoming damage.
Freighters should have crap solo tanks but they need to have the buffers to actually utilize support craft and allow your escort to save you, something that they can not do at the moment as shown by the laughable amount of ships that can eat a freighter.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC.
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:13:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Tortun Nahme
kind of pointless gank, with that many pilots there is NO profit in the gank at all
Random ganks aren't really the problem since one that can kill you fast enough tend to be rare. Its the fact that if they are trying to hunt a specific freighter, when the gank fleet gets in contact with it at the moment it WILL be destroyed. note that there isn't a maybe destroyed with out the proper defense fleet. It's far too binary of an outcome at the moment. its extremely hard to protect one compared to the actual effort of killing one(yes I realize they are a ***** to track down).
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC.
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:18:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Alski
Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:14:46
Originally by: Kailiani
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: Kailiani
While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.
Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec  It should only take you a couple of hours 
Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week
Try to put some perspective on this.
Sure, here's some perspective based on your numbers. 7 x 24 = 168 / 20 = 8.4 hours per gank.
Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?
You forgot a number in those maths, that is the number of people requred, a Basilisk logistics ship with max skills will add about 284 DPS worth of tanking to a freighter, or two of them for about 570 DPS of indefinate tanking, a domi with a crazy little setup i just made in EFT based on my skills would rep 431 DPS for 2 minute 40 seconds solid, two of them could repair 861 DPS, all DPS numbers are not even factored for the freighters resists 
Thats one or 2 ships to keep a 3rd alive, how many domi's does it take to kill a freighter? we are talking man-hours here right? 
edit: and yes i know that a freighter gank fleet puts out more damage than those setups can repair, however all the hostiles WILL die, if you extend the life of the freighter by even 30%, its highley likeley that all the hostile ships will die before the freighter go's down, leaveing you with just a heafty repair bill and the gankers seriousley down on isk.
HYou also need to remember with a gank squads alpha you will be into structure before you get your first rep off, and as such your actually repped amount will not be as effective. And with rep cycles of 5 + seconds the domi's will have you back down to 0 shield and armor again for the next rep.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC.
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:43:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Alski
Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:27:14
Very good point, i forgot freighters have pooy shields.
Domi with 6 armor reps and my skills: 384 DPS, 2 of em would be 768.
8 hostile domi's with my carrier alts skills (highley unlikeley) and no guns fielding ogre I's : 2800 DPS
Freighter tanking time extended by: 36.4% before resists.
With the Current setup scene of about 15 Domis with a Large hitpoint buffer with modest expectation of 746 dps( 6 T1 Neutrons, 5 Ogre IIs, one Mag stab) they'll kill a Charon in about 116-20 seconds. Effective cost of the ships after insurance, 375mil.
Now even with support at the current moment you'll lose the freighter way to fast for logistics to be of any real help, It takes 2 Logistic Domis to cancel a single gank domi. Even with 2 command ships with Shield harmonizing and the armor resist link that I can't think of off they still don't have enough of a buffer in hitpoints to allow logistics to be really effective.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC.
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.09.24 15:31:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Aceoil
Yea right, give the freighter 2 mids and 2 lows.
I'd go fit 2 cargo expander II's and increase my cargo to 1,035,000 m3.
Then I would haul dreadnoughts, and other capital ships into highsec.
And as I said in my post 3 or 4 Mids(no highs or lows) on all freighters, Increase Shields by 30-40k, Reduce armor by half, reduce Hull by half.
If you can fit a cargo expander in a mid then go ahead. And to be honest it really makes me wonder why a freighter has all those structure points. The idea of a Freighter would be to have the bare minimum of Structure in the ship to allow for the most cargo possible, as such you wouldn't want to rely on physical defenses like armor on a ship as it wouldn't have the backing to keep it from caving in.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC.
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.09.26 03:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Docteur Xentav
Originally by: Par Bobot
Edited by: Par Bobot on 25/09/2007 17:01:56
Originally by: 343conspiracy43345
Do you guys not understand the importance of scouts, warp to zero, and logoffski tactics?
Let me ask, have you ever flown one alt? in 0.0 that helps but still a dread could warp in on you after you jump in and lock you before you get a chance to align for warp.
No you have one of your support ships (rapier/hugin works best) double web the freighter each jump (I thought every freighter pilot knew this?) it will send the freighter into warp without the need to align. If the Gank squad manages to get a point on before this can be done you have your CS there to boost the freighters tank, and logistics ships to rep.
It works and its a more than fair investment vs 4-5 billion in a freighter's hold.
The balance thats needed is for the possibility for freighter ganks to occur in high sec and for the possibility to defend against them in high sec. The answer is yes to both so in posing the question are freighters/freighter ganking balanced? The answer is yes.
CCP never intended them to be able to flood markets with 0 risk while afk'd 50 jumps.
So defending a Freighter involves Log off tactics(great addition to the game) and praying that your web ship(one 90% will work just as good as 2) can lock your freighter before they manage to put a point on it(and you have to love that wonderful locking a ship that is decloaking). And with even maxed skilled command ships are rough to break a 30% to each resist. Add that to the spectacular armor and shields they'll last real long. Its like trying to keep a T1 BS with no tank alive for any realistic time. If they could be properly escorted, You would see trips through 0.0 with them a lot more. If anything that is proof that something needs to be done, I've never see people choose to compact a few runs into a freighter. They will always run with a industrial/transport over a freighter. Only recently with more titans and the POS jump bridges have I heard of freighters. In the end it is the same concept the only defense for a freighter is not to be attacked.
Now some people have talked about making sure that you don't put too much isk in freighter to make it worth it. Alright lets think of things that you would put into a freighter for bulk transport. Trit.. alright at 3isk per unit(a little high but easier for calculations) a full load will be around 270mil(90mil trit in a Charon with level 3). Pyerite at 9isk per unit about 810mil which starts putting the freighter at being a ripe target. Now I don't just look at this as a necessarily ganking the freighter to make a profit. You have to also look at the possibility of taking the freighter out as a method of hurting the enemy. In which case a full freighter can quickly become a valuable economic target. The ability to take out even 810mil isk of just cargo and a additional 200-500mil after insurance for the ship makes it very valuable target. Now thats with something as simple as pyerite that you would expect someone to move in bulk. So if we are supposed to run a freighter at 1/3 to 1/2 cargo capacity to avoid being a target then perhaps a better defendable but lower capacity freighter is the answer. So considering that unless your running a freighter empty a freighter is almost always going to have enough material in it to make the long single trip worth it, and as such almost always going to be worth somebody suicide ganking you that wants to hurt you.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC.
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.09.27 03:39:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cornucopian
hey moaners, how about adding to the 21 page thread instead of creating a new one: stop whining.
request a lock for thread spammage.
Because unlike the other thread this freighter pilot doesn't want suicide ganks to stop. IF some idiot wants to fill a Freighter with Mega or Zyd then he deserves to get his ship blown out from under him so fast its not even funny. However, when carrying a full load of low-ends(Mex gives you about 3bil)puts you in the suicide gank range there is a problem with how vulnerable a freighter is.
Suicide ganking should always be around. and for the most part for transports and industrials the balance is about right. Freighters are just a tad bit too easy to kill. In general I find that minerals carrying to be a good indication of whether or not a ship is properly balanced. a full load of isogen should be the point where it should start being considered a target not Pyerite or Mex.
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